G"day All
This is a pretty basic question as the title states.
just another question -I have a ruger VT in 25/06 could I use this gun ,I know it may not be competitive (factory) ,but It could get me on paper maybe ??
PS I have shot bunnies 300-450(rarely) with it.
Regards
Damien Webb.
what is the best/most popular calibre for fly and why.???
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native hunter
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1435
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:07 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: .22lr
- Location: Ballina
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steven
- .222 Remington
- Posts: 399
- Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:57 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6ppc
- Location: Tamworth
Damien,
I don't think there is any calibre or cartridge that stands out in Fly shooting. In Heavy the 30 cals and in Light the 6.5 cals are probably the most popular. Go to this website and look around. http://www.actbenchrest.com
Richard Wild has done a comparison of what has been shot at the Fly over the last couple of years. I think you will find it very interesting. You could load your 25.06 with 100gn sierra mks and you wouldn't be disgraced.
Steve
I don't think there is any calibre or cartridge that stands out in Fly shooting. In Heavy the 30 cals and in Light the 6.5 cals are probably the most popular. Go to this website and look around. http://www.actbenchrest.com
Richard Wild has done a comparison of what has been shot at the Fly over the last couple of years. I think you will find it very interesting. You could load your 25.06 with 100gn sierra mks and you wouldn't be disgraced.
Steve
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Kenny
- 6mm Remington
- Posts: 717
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:55 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6mmPPC
- Location: In the Doghouse
Damo,
I concur with Steven
You will hit paper no worries, and most clubs give you a practise/sight in period before the match to make sure you are on paper before the event starts.
If you check out a ballistic table using your given weight projie and velocity it should give you a ballpark figure for where your impact point needs to be at say 100yrds......probably if you sight your gun in around 10 inches high at 100 it would get you on paper.
If you don't have a chart...post your projie weight and approx velocity and I will post the trajectory figures back for you.
KY
I concur with Steven
You will hit paper no worries, and most clubs give you a practise/sight in period before the match to make sure you are on paper before the event starts.
If you check out a ballistic table using your given weight projie and velocity it should give you a ballpark figure for where your impact point needs to be at say 100yrds......probably if you sight your gun in around 10 inches high at 100 it would get you on paper.
If you don't have a chart...post your projie weight and approx velocity and I will post the trajectory figures back for you.
KY
Re: what is the best/most popular calibre for fly and why.??
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Last edited by a.JR on Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ogre6br
- 300 Win Mag
- Posts: 1781
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:35 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6.5x55 or 6BR
- Location: Melbourne Vic
Great advice AJR- learn something new every day.
If you know your rifle and are confident with it- you'll get on paper.
a missed wind condition will loose you more shots/points etc than the difference in accuracy potential between consistant 1 moa hunting rifle and a consistant 0.5 moa comp rifle will at 500 yards when you are just learning
AJR and Tony Z Et all, - what advice can you give us about how to setup/ prep for a shoot if we want to have a go with our favorite accuracte rifle??
I'm a complete novice at competition so a KISS aproch please.
THanks
later
P
If you know your rifle and are confident with it- you'll get on paper.
a missed wind condition will loose you more shots/points etc than the difference in accuracy potential between consistant 1 moa hunting rifle and a consistant 0.5 moa comp rifle will at 500 yards when you are just learning
AJR and Tony Z Et all, - what advice can you give us about how to setup/ prep for a shoot if we want to have a go with our favorite accuracte rifle??
I'm a complete novice at competition so a KISS aproch please.
THanks
later
P
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native hunter
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1435
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:07 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: .22lr
- Location: Ballina
G'day All
Kenny-As I dont have a chrony I cannot give you exact figures, But I have a variety of projectiles-
75grn v-max=3600fps
85grn nosler b/tip=3450fps
90grn sierra HPBT=3400fps(one of my favourites)
115grn noslerb/tip=2900fps.
Would i be better to use a heavier projectile for higher BC ( not that Iam an authority on this subject.).
Would a 100grn sierra spbt match king be a better choice, do I need lighter projectile= speed for flatter trajectory or do I need a heavier bullet that will buck the wind a bit better and hold velocity.
aJR
Do you mean by your figures that these figures represent what a certain gun will group at 500mtrs.
I presume if you find a load that shoots well at 100mtrs(lets say .250inch),
that it will still group well out to 500mtrs distance or do you need to load test at long range for this type of shoot.
What I think your saying is to find a good load and then shoot it at 500mtrs and then change the load again.( Im lost).!!!
Regards
Damien Webb.
PS Tell me more.!!!
Kenny-As I dont have a chrony I cannot give you exact figures, But I have a variety of projectiles-
75grn v-max=3600fps
85grn nosler b/tip=3450fps
90grn sierra HPBT=3400fps(one of my favourites)
115grn noslerb/tip=2900fps.
Would i be better to use a heavier projectile for higher BC ( not that Iam an authority on this subject.).
Would a 100grn sierra spbt match king be a better choice, do I need lighter projectile= speed for flatter trajectory or do I need a heavier bullet that will buck the wind a bit better and hold velocity.
aJR
Do you mean by your figures that these figures represent what a certain gun will group at 500mtrs.
I presume if you find a load that shoots well at 100mtrs(lets say .250inch),
that it will still group well out to 500mtrs distance or do you need to load test at long range for this type of shoot.
What I think your saying is to find a good load and then shoot it at 500mtrs and then change the load again.( Im lost).!!!
Regards
Damien Webb.
PS Tell me more.!!!
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 25.06
- Location: Hervey Bay Qld
native hunter,
25.06 what a calibre...is there anything it can't do.
Mate I shot my 1st Fly shoot with a 25.06 it will get the distance, with a good load it will score if you point it well.
90 gn Sierra HP and the 100 gm MK are OK No reason 115 nosler BT wont work either.
No you probably won't win 1st time out but who knows maybe you will.
You will however have fun.
Biggest issue scope and scope adjustment. Sight in about 11 -12inches high at 100 and you will be close remember each rifle range is slightly different )uphill, downhill)so no hard and fast rule here.
Make sure you have plenty of adjustment even with the sight in try to have that as the mid point in the scope vertical range.
all will be well
cheers
Rinso
25.06 what a calibre...is there anything it can't do.
Mate I shot my 1st Fly shoot with a 25.06 it will get the distance, with a good load it will score if you point it well.
90 gn Sierra HP and the 100 gm MK are OK No reason 115 nosler BT wont work either.
No you probably won't win 1st time out but who knows maybe you will.
You will however have fun.
Biggest issue scope and scope adjustment. Sight in about 11 -12inches high at 100 and you will be close remember each rifle range is slightly different )uphill, downhill)so no hard and fast rule here.
Make sure you have plenty of adjustment even with the sight in try to have that as the mid point in the scope vertical range.
all will be well
cheers
Rinso
Ogre and Damien,
The rifle setup, as in rests and handling, are a completely seperate issue to deal with as opposed to load setup. But i can tell you that repetition, like return to battery in artillery, is very important and can and will influence the final group outcome irrespective of the barreled actions accuracy potential. So lets say that the 25/06 as mentioned were to be used. On a bipod, this combination, like most any rifle, will have a strong possibility of shooting a perfectly straight vertical line group at 500 M. Reason being is that stocks like barrels have harmonics which bipods can either dampen or amplify depending on hold or just the surface the bipod feet rest on. On a good pedestal rest with sand bags, things are more uniform with shot to shot harmonics and groups tend to be more rounder. Hopefully.
Load developement has two different tacks. Firstly there is the short range mob that do most all of their load developement at one or two hundred yards. These guys i like as when it comes to 500 M or 1000 yds, expectations are high, and performance is often low or just average. In 15 years of Fly i have never owned or seen any cartridge or rifle that had a small group at 100 yds translate into a winning combination at 1000 yds. At 500 M, some combinations have been OK, but eventually poor aggs mean that the load needs long range refining. Recently i had a HG shoot a .2" 5 shotter at 200 M in initial load testing and case fireforming. Then when taken to 500 M, that load hit every point of the compass on the target printing a 4 incher in good weather. Not near competitive in a 60 pound Heavy Gun. The single biggest destroyer of a good group and score agg on a fly target is the dreaded VD. Vertical dispersion.
Again with the 25/06. The 115 Nosler is the bullet to go with by a long way. Good BC and with Re 22 3100+ fps is achievable but accuracy with this pill is more important as we aint trying to turn a bunny into vapour. Look at the best powder options for your cartridge and projectile choice, then fire three shot groups at at target distance no closer than 200 M. Use half or 1 grain increments increasing from some low base charge. Look for pressure as you go and go as far as you feel safe. In Jeffs case that usually means when you see Lapua imprinted on the bolt face.
Try a number of powders but at this point set to only one bullet seating depth and use one good primer type like a 210M. Do not adjust your scope settings once you start as you are also looking for the point of impact change that indicates a dramatic spike in pressure or change in bullet departure and barrel whip (harmonics) position. Look at the targets and they will tell you a story of groups opening and closing in size aswell as their VD. The nature of rifles and the way they are built is that the barrel will sling shots and groups in a vertical plane. So a cluster of 3 shots having a group size of .5" with that same amout in vertical, is potentially not as good as a .75" group that has .2" in vertical. Look for the flat group and if it has small clusters of 3 shots either side of it, this is the one to go with. If it is dramatically low or high from an average point of impact climb that you would expect from velocity increase, keep clear as you just lucked 3 shots being slung into the same place. Confused yet? It gets better.
Now you may have 2 or 3 powder bullet combos that you can test at 500 M. Pick a day that is moderate, hopefully overcast and has even winds that are'nt gale force. Fire 5 shots of each set at 500 M using wind flags as best you can, keeping to an average. At this point you can use a Chronograph if you wish and if you're lucky you may see if the low speed shot is indeed the low shot in the group or vise versa. Do not aim off if you see the group forming to try to tighten things up. You are testing the gun, not you. Looking at the targets again, VD is what you are looking for. It is now that you can fine tune with .3 grains of powder either side of your initial load. If there is no change then you can go back to base and try seating depth change. There is no such thing in this game as on the lands, only in or out. On the lands requires perfect bullets with perfect neck tension seated in a flex free die and then shot in a chamber where the throat never disappears. All fictional. Go 10 thou in or 10 thou out. Seating depth change shot at long range instantly tells you what the rifle wants. Once you get the seating depth, again adjust the powder charge by .3 of a grain either side. If there is still no joy, go back to base powder charge and seating depth and change primers. Then repeat the proccess over. This can chew up a number of rounds and time, but the effort is worth it.
Now that you have halved the life of your barrel, what is the group potential you should expect? I do not shoot factory guns in Fly, but i would say that with todays tactical and varmint guns, better than 4" for five shots should be achievable. With a LG i would expect 5 shots in or under 2". With a HG i consider it competitive when 10 shots can go into less than 2".
These days i do away with the 200 or 300 M fire form and initial load test and just do the whole lot at 500 M. If it were possible, i would do same at 1000 yards.
Tony Z.
The rifle setup, as in rests and handling, are a completely seperate issue to deal with as opposed to load setup. But i can tell you that repetition, like return to battery in artillery, is very important and can and will influence the final group outcome irrespective of the barreled actions accuracy potential. So lets say that the 25/06 as mentioned were to be used. On a bipod, this combination, like most any rifle, will have a strong possibility of shooting a perfectly straight vertical line group at 500 M. Reason being is that stocks like barrels have harmonics which bipods can either dampen or amplify depending on hold or just the surface the bipod feet rest on. On a good pedestal rest with sand bags, things are more uniform with shot to shot harmonics and groups tend to be more rounder. Hopefully.
Load developement has two different tacks. Firstly there is the short range mob that do most all of their load developement at one or two hundred yards. These guys i like as when it comes to 500 M or 1000 yds, expectations are high, and performance is often low or just average. In 15 years of Fly i have never owned or seen any cartridge or rifle that had a small group at 100 yds translate into a winning combination at 1000 yds. At 500 M, some combinations have been OK, but eventually poor aggs mean that the load needs long range refining. Recently i had a HG shoot a .2" 5 shotter at 200 M in initial load testing and case fireforming. Then when taken to 500 M, that load hit every point of the compass on the target printing a 4 incher in good weather. Not near competitive in a 60 pound Heavy Gun. The single biggest destroyer of a good group and score agg on a fly target is the dreaded VD. Vertical dispersion.
Again with the 25/06. The 115 Nosler is the bullet to go with by a long way. Good BC and with Re 22 3100+ fps is achievable but accuracy with this pill is more important as we aint trying to turn a bunny into vapour. Look at the best powder options for your cartridge and projectile choice, then fire three shot groups at at target distance no closer than 200 M. Use half or 1 grain increments increasing from some low base charge. Look for pressure as you go and go as far as you feel safe. In Jeffs case that usually means when you see Lapua imprinted on the bolt face.
Try a number of powders but at this point set to only one bullet seating depth and use one good primer type like a 210M. Do not adjust your scope settings once you start as you are also looking for the point of impact change that indicates a dramatic spike in pressure or change in bullet departure and barrel whip (harmonics) position. Look at the targets and they will tell you a story of groups opening and closing in size aswell as their VD. The nature of rifles and the way they are built is that the barrel will sling shots and groups in a vertical plane. So a cluster of 3 shots having a group size of .5" with that same amout in vertical, is potentially not as good as a .75" group that has .2" in vertical. Look for the flat group and if it has small clusters of 3 shots either side of it, this is the one to go with. If it is dramatically low or high from an average point of impact climb that you would expect from velocity increase, keep clear as you just lucked 3 shots being slung into the same place. Confused yet? It gets better.
Now you may have 2 or 3 powder bullet combos that you can test at 500 M. Pick a day that is moderate, hopefully overcast and has even winds that are'nt gale force. Fire 5 shots of each set at 500 M using wind flags as best you can, keeping to an average. At this point you can use a Chronograph if you wish and if you're lucky you may see if the low speed shot is indeed the low shot in the group or vise versa. Do not aim off if you see the group forming to try to tighten things up. You are testing the gun, not you. Looking at the targets again, VD is what you are looking for. It is now that you can fine tune with .3 grains of powder either side of your initial load. If there is no change then you can go back to base and try seating depth change. There is no such thing in this game as on the lands, only in or out. On the lands requires perfect bullets with perfect neck tension seated in a flex free die and then shot in a chamber where the throat never disappears. All fictional. Go 10 thou in or 10 thou out. Seating depth change shot at long range instantly tells you what the rifle wants. Once you get the seating depth, again adjust the powder charge by .3 of a grain either side. If there is still no joy, go back to base powder charge and seating depth and change primers. Then repeat the proccess over. This can chew up a number of rounds and time, but the effort is worth it.
Now that you have halved the life of your barrel, what is the group potential you should expect? I do not shoot factory guns in Fly, but i would say that with todays tactical and varmint guns, better than 4" for five shots should be achievable. With a LG i would expect 5 shots in or under 2". With a HG i consider it competitive when 10 shots can go into less than 2".
These days i do away with the 200 or 300 M fire form and initial load test and just do the whole lot at 500 M. If it were possible, i would do same at 1000 yards.
Tony Z.
Last edited by Tony Z on Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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native hunter
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1435
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:07 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: .22lr
- Location: Ballina
G'Day
Pheeeew,I will have to keep reading this thread for a few days to digest it all, but Im keen to learn and I think am getting fly blown !!!
This is really interesting stuff, you blokes are the book of knowledge.
Now all I have to do is get the gun on paper and come to a shoot and have a play.
This is seriuosly messing with my head I cant seem to think about any thing else, YEAH Im fly blown.!!
Regards
Damien Webb
PS tell me more.!!
Pheeeew,I will have to keep reading this thread for a few days to digest it all, but Im keen to learn and I think am getting fly blown !!!
This is really interesting stuff, you blokes are the book of knowledge.
Now all I have to do is get the gun on paper and come to a shoot and have a play.
This is seriuosly messing with my head I cant seem to think about any thing else, YEAH Im fly blown.!!
Regards
Damien Webb
PS tell me more.!!
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Kenny
- 6mm Remington
- Posts: 717
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:55 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6mmPPC
- Location: In the Doghouse
Damo,
I see you have got some good advice already
Sorry for being slow with it, I started this last night but the kids had other ideas for me 
The Sierra ballistics chart claims that you would need to sight your gun in at 12.4" high at 100m for a 500m zero, this is in a perfect world but should have you hitting paper no worries.
This is for a 117gn Sierra at a speed of 3000fps which you should get easily, if your out a few 100fps it will still get you on paper regardless.
The 117 grain Sierra has the highest BC (ballistic coefficient) listed by them in 25 cal. The idea is to use the highest BC pill you can as BC=the bullets ability to resist wind drag so retaining the highest velocity and energy.
I don't know how the pills Rinso listed would compare, so maybe a search of some bullet makers sites will show that. The Sierra 117 is at 0.437@3000fps.
I guess all the load tuning advice you have been given gets the same result and I don't think one is better than the other, so I may as well chuck mine in as well
All I do is -
Shoot 3 shot groups (to save on components) at 100 yrds using the ladder method (0.5g a time) of increasing the powder charge until I get pressure signs. BE CAREFULL
Where you start is your choice so if you have a safe load already worked up, don't bother going back down in load
I shoot at 100 as I feel there is less chance of me fudging the group at that distance.
When I get a nice triangle type group, I will fire a 5 shotter to be sure I wasn't just lucky. You have now found the barrells most accurate 'harmonic node', there may be several spots on the ladder test where you get nice groups so pick the highest/safest one to use.
I then move ut to 200yrds (or thereabouts, my range is a bit short) and retest the load I have just done.
I then adjust the seating depth of the bullet in the case to 'fine tune' the load some more. I always start with the projie just touching the lands and work into the lands in 5 thou increments first (25 thou max), if no joy I will work out off the lands in 5 thou's till I find a sweet spot. You should have bugger all verticle by now and a tackholer load
Flags are very important and they can be as simple as a stick with a bit of surveyors tape tied around it The secret to shooting small groups is in the wind reading, at a benchrest match 90% of the guns are capable of winning so it all comes down to wind reading skills. I am no expert at it and prolly never will be... 
Just peg out some flags in line with you and the target, every 30m should be enough for a start, if you have a gully or gaps in the treeline where the wind could blow differently, stick one there as well.
Now plonk yourself down at the bench and study the condition for awhile, notice how the flags react with the change in condition. The idea is to fire your shots when the flags all show the same thing, you may fire two shots and then cop a gust, wait for the same condition you fired the other to in to come back before you fire the third shot....see easy all good practise.
I dunno if you can take your loading kit with or not to do these tests, so it might take several outings to do it. Maybe load up 3 of each powder charge first time out, if you get a hot one bring it home and pull the projies of that lot. Then go out with your seating depths tests next time and so on
A bit of work but worth it.
KY
I see you have got some good advice already
Sorry for being slow with it, I started this last night but the kids had other ideas for me The Sierra ballistics chart claims that you would need to sight your gun in at 12.4" high at 100m for a 500m zero, this is in a perfect world but should have you hitting paper no worries.
This is for a 117gn Sierra at a speed of 3000fps which you should get easily, if your out a few 100fps it will still get you on paper regardless.
The 117 grain Sierra has the highest BC (ballistic coefficient) listed by them in 25 cal. The idea is to use the highest BC pill you can as BC=the bullets ability to resist wind drag so retaining the highest velocity and energy.
I don't know how the pills Rinso listed would compare, so maybe a search of some bullet makers sites will show that. The Sierra 117 is at 0.437@3000fps.
I guess all the load tuning advice you have been given gets the same result and I don't think one is better than the other, so I may as well chuck mine in as well
All I do is -
Shoot 3 shot groups (to save on components) at 100 yrds using the ladder method (0.5g a time) of increasing the powder charge until I get pressure signs. BE CAREFULL
Where you start is your choice so if you have a safe load already worked up, don't bother going back down in load I shoot at 100 as I feel there is less chance of me fudging the group at that distance.
When I get a nice triangle type group, I will fire a 5 shotter to be sure I wasn't just lucky. You have now found the barrells most accurate 'harmonic node', there may be several spots on the ladder test where you get nice groups so pick the highest/safest one to use.
I then move ut to 200yrds (or thereabouts, my range is a bit short) and retest the load I have just done.
I then adjust the seating depth of the bullet in the case to 'fine tune' the load some more. I always start with the projie just touching the lands and work into the lands in 5 thou increments first (25 thou max), if no joy I will work out off the lands in 5 thou's till I find a sweet spot. You should have bugger all verticle by now and a tackholer load
Flags are very important and they can be as simple as a stick with a bit of surveyors tape tied around it
The secret to shooting small groups is in the wind reading, at a benchrest match 90% of the guns are capable of winning so it all comes down to wind reading skills. I am no expert at it and prolly never will be... Just peg out some flags in line with you and the target, every 30m should be enough for a start, if you have a gully or gaps in the treeline where the wind could blow differently, stick one there as well.
Now plonk yourself down at the bench and study the condition for awhile, notice how the flags react with the change in condition. The idea is to fire your shots when the flags all show the same thing, you may fire two shots and then cop a gust, wait for the same condition you fired the other to in to come back before you fire the third shot....see easy
all good practise.I dunno if you can take your loading kit with or not to do these tests, so it might take several outings to do it. Maybe load up 3 of each powder charge first time out, if you get a hot one bring it home and pull the projies of that lot. Then go out with your seating depths tests next time and so on
A bit of work but worth it.KY
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native hunter
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1435
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:07 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: .22lr
- Location: Ballina
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 25.06
- Location: Hervey Bay Qld
native hunter,
The next Fly shoot is the Federal Cup at Canberra on March 10 2007 a 1000yd shoot will be held the next day.
Use the 25.06 it is all you will need for the first shoot, make sure you have a scope that will let you see enough to aim effectively.
You can camp at the range for (I think $5 a nite) or stay at a motel.
If you have any questions let me know.
Turn up and have a go... if you like it you will be building rifles in a heart beat, if you dont you will stop wondering about it.
cheers
Rinso
The next Fly shoot is the Federal Cup at Canberra on March 10 2007 a 1000yd shoot will be held the next day.
Use the 25.06 it is all you will need for the first shoot, make sure you have a scope that will let you see enough to aim effectively.
You can camp at the range for (I think $5 a nite) or stay at a motel.
If you have any questions let me know.
Turn up and have a go... if you like it you will be building rifles in a heart beat, if you dont you will stop wondering about it.
cheers
Rinso