You know what i hate the most about shooting...

[GriMo]

I'm not going to wade into the custom v off the shelf argument because I think the positives and negatives of both make it purely a matter of personal choice, but what what does the total cost of that become factoring in smithing costs Tony?

[kjd]

Hey Dr G,

What was the gun you replaced the custom with and what were they chambered in? What hit %age did each have?

I only ask because a change in cartridge and even rifle type will be important in your hits.

Sorry mate it has taken a while as i needed to go home and look up some log books. The gun that was replaced was a sporter barreled Remington SPS chamberedd in 223 that had fired just over 3000 rounds. Handloads using 50gn blitzkings had a once off best accuracy of 18mm at 100m for five rounds and 46mm at 100m for five strings of five shot groups. For the last 6 months before the rifle was replaced hit percentage out to 150m in spotlighting conditions (ie door rest) was 70% (26 hits from 37 shots ths was during the drought) . This was replaced with the CatKiller which is a Stiller Predator Action (High tolerance Rem 700) and a Remington Varmint Profile Lilja barrel. Using 39gn Blitzkings best accuracy was 9mm at 200m with 16mm at 200m for five strings of five shots (25 shots). In the first three months of using this rifle accuracy under spotlight and out to 150m jumped to 88% (21 hits from 24 shots the drought only got worse ).

Also are you sure that you didn't become a better shot over that time and also is it confidence because it is a custom gun?

Given the data presented for the 6months either side of the changeover i dont think my skill level improved that much. As for confidence in the rifle that only comes from having something that is clearly better than the factory option. You could argue that its apples for oranges as I was comparing a sporter with what is esentially a high tolerance custom modeled around a VSSFII but thats why I have left the ranges limited to 150m. Beyond that the hit frequency drops significantly under a spotlight and the CatKiller really shines compared to the old Remington. In addition to improved accuracy at shorter ranges it also has added at least 50m to my effective range (this isnt my maximum but the range where i am confidednt of a kill)

I really believe once you get to a certain point in accuracy of any rifle anything under 300yds comes down to the shooter and the shooter only.

300yrds (274m) under spotlight is a bloody long way but acheivable. Anyone who can get consistent 1 shot kills under a spotlight on small predators and rabbits are much better shots than me. My longest recovered kill from spotlighting was 321m on a small cat, I dont claim to be able to duplicate this effort every time. The longest with the Rem was 310m. An accurate and precise rifle will be better at any range just because you eliminate so many of the variables. Sure if you hunting pigs and goats you have an argument that most modern factories are good enough off the shelf but if you are spotlighting small predators at medium to moderate ranges then a good custom will definately be worth the investment

Dr G

Great data mate,

My only issue is the varmint profile vs an SPS sporter. Weight does make a huge difference, the heavier the rifle the better you will shoot due to smaller movements are picked up by the lighter rifle. Not only that but heat will change POI so a heavier profile barrel will shoot more accurately for longer compared to the sporter weight barrels.

So a 18% difference. $1000 rifle vs a 3 or 4 thousand dollar rifle? It really is about fractions at the higher levels of anything I do understand that. Nearly any piece of machinery or technology you will spend many thousands more for small gains that is for sure.

As I said I'm not against custom rifles, I just don't think that most shooters would see a massive benefit in reality other than confidence in the equipment. I'm not talking about you guys either I just don't think if you gave an average shooter a custom rifle vs a good qual factory rifle his shot percentage would change as much as yours did providing they are the same type of rifle (Varmint/sporter etc).

Do I see a custom rifle in my safe one day? For sure. I don't think it will change my performance in the field significantly though.

[kjd]

I'm not going to wade into the custom v off the shelf argument because I think the positives and negatives of both make it purely a matter of personal choice, but what what does the total cost of that become factoring in smithing costs Tony?

You are right mate and no amount of money in equipment will make you a better shooter in the field. The only way to do that is with constant practice.

[Bidgee]

Guys,

Just take a leaf out of my book, talked the wife into letting me buy a lathe, next will be a small mill, now she's telling me I should make my own 30 cal match bullets. Just need to talk the boss into giving me a pay rise to make it happen faster.
I don't do my own barrels yet, but in time. In the meantime, I can recrown, make dies and all the other fiddly stuff that takes ages to get done elsewhere.

Jeff

I did the same. Bought a lathe and a small mill and now do my own fitting and altering. Not a cheap option and I had a serious learning curve but there's some real satisfaction in building your own rifle.

Spending money on tooling and machines is as addictive as guns

[Wildcat]

I'm not going to wade into the custom v off the shelf argument because I think the positives and negatives of both make it purely a matter of personal choice, but what what does the total cost of that become factoring in smithing costs Tony?

Tony shows $140 for chambering and crowning (what about headspacing, surely done at the same time?) if you were paying for a bedding job, and assembly of the whole rifle it would have to be another couple of hundred.

For sure it's a personal choice, for me I will get some extra satisfaction out of doing my own stocks and bedding. I would really like to do the barrel fitting etc too but all the tooling for that is not an option for me just now.

I think you need to have had/used both to really know the difference, rather than just having an opinion

[Camel]

Hey Keith, I should be in a situation soon where I can do a comparisson for you using 22lr shooting rabbits for the chiller. At the moment I have a CZ453 Varmint that I am using until I can get my original Brno mod 2 back from getting a new barrel, trigger and bedded into a Boyds thumbhole, they should nearly be identical except for the Maddco barrel being put into the older one that i have had since 1973/4.
Currently i have around 10% miss or double shot rate using the CZ. I would like to lower that to around 5% if I can. Will keep as accurate records as I can and let you know how it turns out.
Just in ammo savings using Win power points and the time saved and extra bunnys on the rack at the end of the night should just about pay it self off in 12 to 18 months.

[andrewk]

Keith,

on the custom gun debate i must say you can gain a vast improvement out of a second hand factory rifle and i've done this 3 times now. 2 of those 3 rifles have become freaks that shoot 1/4 MOA, the 3rd i haven't finished yet hense this thread.

anyway with these three rifles i've paid on average $400. they're Tikka LSA55's and a little patience gets them cheap. the next thing is sourcing quality barrels, i scored a second hand maddco in 30cal for $150 so one rifle is now a 308, i did the stock myself, bedding and paintwork, and also did the trigger. my GS charged me $250 for his work. the result was a rifle that shoots .3 MOA any day and cost less than $900.

the second is my 20cal semi wild cat. now i paid a bit more for the barrel but all other cost were the same. that gun came in at about $1200, its best group was .176" and i average 1/4MOA.

so with careful selection you can build these things cheaper than factory guns and the confidence to wax Mr Fox at 300+m is phenomenal.

i had a kill streak a while ago of 31 foxes, crows and rabbits. longest lazered shot under lights was 386m

that said i still love my T3 204 but i can't wait to put a Kreiger on it.

[Tony Z]

The Sako was chosen as the benchmark rifle as it seems to be what many aspire to own. But if you look at a Howa/Weatherby, the custom does cost near double. The Tikka is about two thirds the price. So the custom is dear in comparison and in my view the Sako is way off the mark where it, like Remington, are living on the reputations of the past. From experiences through target shooting, i would always build and never buy a complete rig as there is little certainty with a factory rifle. I have never seen a bad Maddco barrel, and having the opportunity to peer down many factory barrels with a bore scope at the LGS, there is little to rave about from any manufacturer. Barring Howa maybe. They make an excellent barrel, too bad the rest is ordinary.

The problem with getting a custom rifle is usually not the cost, but the acquisition of the components. That very fact coupled with the go slow attitude of professional gunsmiths has Australia in a position that will be unlike the US where customs are everywhere. Now that Shane has decided to not import/supply any components, customs off him be be rarer. That is a trend that will continue as the US State Department changes the goal posts, as does Aus Customs that screwed Shane over, makes the process very ambiguous whenever they wish to with the threat of terrorism act breaches hanging over the head of many exporters. Take reamers, no specific laws early on, just a veiled threat should one fall into the wrong hands, so exporters went the safe route and stopped exporting. Luckily i make all my own reamers and have done so for near on 15 years. Factory rifles will probably be something that one will be limited to in the future for those not prepared to wait the months or even years where already existing custom rifles will be something snapped up off abusedguns as quick as they land. The re-barrel side should still thrive and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a good match barrel on a factory platform. That really is the basic downfall of the factory rifle where the serious varminter is concerned, a poorly finished or non uniform barrel dimensions.

I don't know what price you guys pay in the South, but the $140 stated for the barrel fitment is complete ready to shoot. Both the stock and bottom metal prices are an average of the market where in actual fact we both acquired those components for considerably less. To the point where both rifles will come in under the cost of the Sako. The PSS stock with its alloy bedding area and full length spine requires no bedding. I have bedded them before with no noticeable performance gain. Unless your action is warped and flexes on the screw down, which with Remington of late is a 50/50 chance. The Pearce action is just a very straight and tight Remington, but with a few nice features like a bolt release that allows the use of the Jewell BR triggers as they are.

[andrewk]

Tony,

When did exporters stop shipping reamers?

[Tony Z]

Andrew, totally agree. The LSAs are real freaks where many i have owned shoot great in the original stock. This is one i am just doing up now. Just waiting on the other barrels.

Reamers have ceased to be sent in the last couple of months.

[Brad Y]

Reamers are a pain Tony- trying to get a couple of them built up now. PT&G no response. Mansons great until I told them Im ready to pay now then no response. JGS says 18 week lead time but can export. Just sent an email to clymers now. Fingers crossed. If its not going to happen then I think I will go back to my idea of a 6.5x47L FO gun and shoot 130's instead of a 260 wildcat and the 140's. Seems Matt P is dominating the QRA Queens leadup with his so they cant be that bad.

[Ackley Improved]

I agree with Tony Z. Buying a higher end factory rifle is a waste of time and money due to the cost of a custom rig.

Cheers

[andrewk]

nice bolt handle on that tikka tony.

if reamers are a non export item any chance you'll go into business supplying reamers to criminal gun enthuesiasts like us??

[Brad Y]

Would be great if reamers were made in Aus, but my guess they would start around $300 or more. Still by the time you buy one and ship it over, I reckon I would support the aussie business.

[andrewk]

anyone with a CNC?