Ned
So when testing loads (talking factory rifles for hunting here) we should be looking for less vertical spread and working from there rather than the smallest group (which may be higher than wider if you know what i meen).
I noticed on my 30-06 with 150gr NBT's that some groups would but 3 shots on the same horozontal plane, but 2" apart, but the smallest group (lower powder charge) would put them in a line about 20' off vertical and a 1" group.
Would i have been better of working more on the charge than gave the smallest vertical grouping as maybe it was just me making a mess of it.
Rick
How to read Groups
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day Rick,
I would hope that the day when you shot the group with the lowest vertical dispersion it was windy!
I do like to see less vertical, but I don't like seeing bullets spread across the paper without explaination.
This is where you need to be able to call each shot. That is, as it is fired you need to be able to say if you pulled it (did the sight picture as the shot fired, move or not), which way the wind was blowing, did the wind change direction during the group, were you shooting off a good rest, a bipod or a hard surface like a too box etc.
The cheapest and effective rest I've seen is a old money bag filled with sand/rice or similar and the rifle rested on that. Give it a try.
The only way to be sure is to test that load again. one group is not a good way of testing, also i'd only fire 3 shots in a rifle to start with and as I refined the load then I'd shoot 5 shot groups. Saves on barrel life and powder/bullets. Also you are more likely to get an even wind condition for 3 shots and not with 5. all this is much easier to see with an accurate varminter or BR rifle too.
If the rifle was shot off a bipod, that could explain the vertical in the smallest group. As I've found with a bipod you need to hold the fore-end down especially on a concrete bench to avoid bounce as the shot is fired. You definately cannot fire free recoil with a bipod in my honest opinion.
Try to find a day where there is little or no wind, as this will mess with any load testing and zeroing of the rifle & scope. If the day was calm, and in a 30-06, anything around the 1" or better mark is perfect for hunting.
Please understand, I was trying to show groups that you could expect in a varminting rifle. for a medium to large game rifle, 1" groups is good enough, i reckon. Also the bullet makers (and rifle makers) designed and built their bullets/rifle for medium to large game, not for varminting. So if you get varminting accuracy thats great, but 1moa is fine, just as the makers intended I suspect.
Hope this helps
Cheerio Ned
I would hope that the day when you shot the group with the lowest vertical dispersion it was windy!
I do like to see less vertical, but I don't like seeing bullets spread across the paper without explaination.
This is where you need to be able to call each shot. That is, as it is fired you need to be able to say if you pulled it (did the sight picture as the shot fired, move or not), which way the wind was blowing, did the wind change direction during the group, were you shooting off a good rest, a bipod or a hard surface like a too box etc.
The cheapest and effective rest I've seen is a old money bag filled with sand/rice or similar and the rifle rested on that. Give it a try.
The only way to be sure is to test that load again. one group is not a good way of testing, also i'd only fire 3 shots in a rifle to start with and as I refined the load then I'd shoot 5 shot groups. Saves on barrel life and powder/bullets. Also you are more likely to get an even wind condition for 3 shots and not with 5. all this is much easier to see with an accurate varminter or BR rifle too.
If the rifle was shot off a bipod, that could explain the vertical in the smallest group. As I've found with a bipod you need to hold the fore-end down especially on a concrete bench to avoid bounce as the shot is fired. You definately cannot fire free recoil with a bipod in my honest opinion.
Try to find a day where there is little or no wind, as this will mess with any load testing and zeroing of the rifle & scope. If the day was calm, and in a 30-06, anything around the 1" or better mark is perfect for hunting.
Please understand, I was trying to show groups that you could expect in a varminting rifle. for a medium to large game rifle, 1" groups is good enough, i reckon. Also the bullet makers (and rifle makers) designed and built their bullets/rifle for medium to large game, not for varminting. So if you get varminting accuracy thats great, but 1moa is fine, just as the makers intended I suspect.
Hope this helps
Cheerio Ned
Ned, No worries! Thanks for your knowledge once again 
I don't use flags and try to get out on calm days for serious testing which I know is very slack on my part and I will generally just read the grass and surrounding trees which is not exactly scientific, I think I need to invest in some flags and will try the stripes, I am predominantly a hunter and I don’t shoot BR but the idea is starting to take my fancy as I cant just duck out the back paddock anymore for a shoot and generally only get to hunt 1 or 2 times a month. Were getting ready to go away now but I would like to take you up on your offer so early in the new year I'll get back to you for some more insight and give you a look at some targets.
Thanks again.
All the Best
John
I don't use flags and try to get out on calm days for serious testing which I know is very slack on my part and I will generally just read the grass and surrounding trees which is not exactly scientific, I think I need to invest in some flags and will try the stripes, I am predominantly a hunter and I don’t shoot BR but the idea is starting to take my fancy as I cant just duck out the back paddock anymore for a shoot and generally only get to hunt 1 or 2 times a month. Were getting ready to go away now but I would like to take you up on your offer so early in the new year I'll get back to you for some more insight and give you a look at some targets.Thanks again.
All the Best
John
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day John,
the very fact you are looking at trees grass etc, means that you're on the right track. Let's face it, nly a few dedicted LR varminters would put out wind flags and usually only a couple if that.
Certainly when testing flags allow you to give the load and rifle every chance to show what it is capable of. That's only fair.
In the paddock well a little luck helps too!
Cheerio Ned
the very fact you are looking at trees grass etc, means that you're on the right track. Let's face it, nly a few dedicted LR varminters would put out wind flags and usually only a couple if that.
Certainly when testing flags allow you to give the load and rifle every chance to show what it is capable of. That's only fair.
In the paddock well a little luck helps too!
Cheerio Ned