As a PPC shooter I should take offence at being called a sheep but I don't give a shit either way. I have shot the Fly with a 6PPC shooting 68gn fb projectiles and have also shot a group smaller at 1.6" then the 6br sheep. The PPC sheep don't give a flying F**k what the longe range sheep do so let's keep it down before it gets dirty. I hate to say it but I have just become a BR sheep also with my 30br and am also a longe range sheep as well with my 30.06ackley so here is my last word on the matter.
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
300 YD Targets!
Sorry my little jibe about about sheep has upset some people. I too have been a BR sheep with my PPCs and 30 BRs. My jibe is to do with the fact that in SR BR there is only talk of the 6 PPC amongst the shooters, whereas in LR BR there is no one dominant cartridge to date and there is lots of talk of different calibers and cartridges. Totally not boring as yet.
Tony Z.
Tony Z.
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steven
- .222 Remington
- Posts: 399
- Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:57 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6ppc
- Location: Tamworth
Tony,
I take everything with a grain of salt....There is no reason people should get upset about other peoples views about things....I like to be multi skilled in shooting that's why I shoot most benchrest disciplines....We had a Fly shooter many years ago and I wont mention any names that was totally screwed if you talked about anything other then the Fly...Hopefully Kenny and I will get our 30brs seriusly up and running shortly and give the PPCs something to think about...They are showing a lot of promise...Shot mine at 200yds on Sunday in some fairly sporting gale force winds and shot a .3, .5 & 1.1....was very surprised as I was told 200yds would be their downfall...Cant wait till we get some good conditions.
Steve
I take everything with a grain of salt....There is no reason people should get upset about other peoples views about things....I like to be multi skilled in shooting that's why I shoot most benchrest disciplines....We had a Fly shooter many years ago and I wont mention any names that was totally screwed if you talked about anything other then the Fly...Hopefully Kenny and I will get our 30brs seriusly up and running shortly and give the PPCs something to think about...They are showing a lot of promise...Shot mine at 200yds on Sunday in some fairly sporting gale force winds and shot a .3, .5 & 1.1....was very surprised as I was told 200yds would be their downfall...Cant wait till we get some good conditions.
Steve
Now if you want to get some real flack off the SR boys, take your 30 BR into a registered match and knock em off. I have had one attempt at it and my scope let me down. Thanks to Phil Jones he lent me a spare and i was able to do reasonable at 200 yds. LV and 30 BRs and some scopes are just not ment to be.
Tony Z.
ps. Try your 30 at 300 yds verses your 6 ppc and see what you come up with. Never let anyone tell you that a 30 BR can't compete past 100 yds on anything other than a Hunter Class target.
Tony Z.
ps. Try your 30 at 300 yds verses your 6 ppc and see what you come up with. Never let anyone tell you that a 30 BR can't compete past 100 yds on anything other than a Hunter Class target.
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'day Tony,
a lot of us SR BR lads are only interested in performance and we have watched some cartridges come and go with fads and ultimately they haven't rattled too many cages .......yet. Maybe he 30BR will, but until there is a measurable improvement in accuracy/performance etc, I'll stick to my 6ppc mainly because I cannot splash money around on "wot if" projects.
Lets face it, with any new designed cartridge such as the 30BR you have to consider some of the following points; is the recoil increased over the 6ppc, will the recoil wreck scopes, will you develope a flinch, does the rifle still ride the bags the same, or do you have to come up with a new shooting technique, is there increased torque reaction, the cost of tooling up in dies, who has a reamer, barrel availabilty etc. There are many factors to be considered before any shooter (and especially me) at least goes against the ppc trend to follow another chambering.
Mind you to all those precision shooters who put their money where their mouths are, it is through experimentation like this that came up with the ppc family. I think personally the weak point in BR today is the scopes and fixing the scope internals seems to be able to produce a better bang for yer buck and increase in performance on the bench. Ultimately for both ideas, fixed scopes & the 30BR, only time will tell and good luck to you all.
Cheerio Ned
a lot of us SR BR lads are only interested in performance and we have watched some cartridges come and go with fads and ultimately they haven't rattled too many cages .......yet. Maybe he 30BR will, but until there is a measurable improvement in accuracy/performance etc, I'll stick to my 6ppc mainly because I cannot splash money around on "wot if" projects.
Lets face it, with any new designed cartridge such as the 30BR you have to consider some of the following points; is the recoil increased over the 6ppc, will the recoil wreck scopes, will you develope a flinch, does the rifle still ride the bags the same, or do you have to come up with a new shooting technique, is there increased torque reaction, the cost of tooling up in dies, who has a reamer, barrel availabilty etc. There are many factors to be considered before any shooter (and especially me) at least goes against the ppc trend to follow another chambering.
Mind you to all those precision shooters who put their money where their mouths are, it is through experimentation like this that came up with the ppc family. I think personally the weak point in BR today is the scopes and fixing the scope internals seems to be able to produce a better bang for yer buck and increase in performance on the bench. Ultimately for both ideas, fixed scopes & the 30BR, only time will tell and good luck to you all.
Cheerio Ned
Lists!
Hi Ned ,I think your post is a graphic example of why i will never venture into 100/200 BR, but at no time do i begrudge the fact that a bunch of guys all over the world get a great deal of enjoyment from it ..Probably the biggest single thing i like about shooting past 551 yds is that you can still do your own work ,design your own cartridge ,hell design and make the whole thing in your back shed at home and still go out and be competitive regardless of where you go in Australia.. I guess i'm just a nonconformist,isn't great we are not all the same ..JR..Jeff Rogers................................
Ned Kelly wrote:G'day Tony,
a lot of us SR BR lads are only interested in performance and we have watched some cartridges come and go with fads and ultimately they haven't rattled too many cages .......yet. Maybe he 30BR will, but until there is a measurable improvement in accuracy/performance etc, I'll stick to my 6ppc mainly because I cannot splash money around on "wot if" projects.
Lets face it, with any new designed cartridge such as the 30BR you have to consider some of the following points; is the recoil increased over the 6ppc, will the recoil wreck scopes, will you develope a flinch, does the rifle still ride the bags the same, or do you have to come up with a new shooting technique, is there increased torque reaction, the cost of tooling up in dies, who has a reamer, barrel availabilty etc. There are many factors to be considered before any shooter (and especially me) at least goes against the ppc trend to follow another chambering.
Mind you to all those precision shooters who put their money where their mouths are, it is through experimentation like this that came up with the ppc family. I think personally the weak point in BR today is the scopes and fixing the scope internals seems to be able to produce a better bang for yer buck and increase in performance on the bench. Ultimately for both ideas, fixed scopes & the 30BR, only time will tell and good luck to you all.
Cheerio Ned
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day a.JR,
you're right you know, I believe that in SR BR the margins are just too tight to allow me to rock the boat. Where yardages and grand aggs are won or lost by a couple of thou I need to worry about the load, the wind and bag set up just to remain competitve, whereas as I've found in F class, good case design, meticulous bullet selection, and wind reading skills allow you the opportunity to push the envelope.
So if you can designe/adapt a case to meet required velocity for a given calibre and bullet, play with ES & SD's you have much more control over your performance. SR BR has very little envelope margin left for the experimentor to play with (or within) and you can quickly fall down through the ranks if you get it wrong......
Anyway, I like LR & SR precision shooting , the challenges are different but the end game is the same to not disgrace yourself, place well and win if your good enough.
Cheerio Ned
you're right you know, I believe that in SR BR the margins are just too tight to allow me to rock the boat. Where yardages and grand aggs are won or lost by a couple of thou I need to worry about the load, the wind and bag set up just to remain competitve, whereas as I've found in F class, good case design, meticulous bullet selection, and wind reading skills allow you the opportunity to push the envelope.
So if you can designe/adapt a case to meet required velocity for a given calibre and bullet, play with ES & SD's you have much more control over your performance. SR BR has very little envelope margin left for the experimentor to play with (or within) and you can quickly fall down through the ranks if you get it wrong......
Anyway, I like LR & SR precision shooting , the challenges are different but the end game is the same to not disgrace yourself, place well and win if your good enough.
Cheerio Ned
Wants and needs!
Ned , If you think that these requirements are not the same in Long Range BR , U need to widen your horizons and get to a few 500 on out Bench matchs.. You can trust me when i say that if you havn't got it all together and i'm at the same match you had better hope my scope falls apart or something unlucky like that happens ..A good 5 target agg for me is just around .400 at 551 yds,i've heard of those at 200 at times..I can do this with something i grew in my shed ..JR..Jeff Rogers
Where yardages and grand aggs are won or lost by a couple of thou I need to worry about the load, the wind and bag set up just to remain competitve,
Cheerio Ned[/quote]
Where yardages and grand aggs are won or lost by a couple of thou I need to worry about the load, the wind and bag set up just to remain competitve,
Cheerio Ned[/quote]
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Kenny
- 6mm Remington
- Posts: 717
- Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:55 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6mmPPC
- Location: In the Doghouse
All,
I think the evolution of accuracy is alive and well, and there are a few SR blokes out there who like JR/DG/TZ (have or are doing) are designing things in the shed in the quest for better performance
a mate of mine is currently working on a whole new SR case design which shows a lot of promise.
I agree with JR... it is all the same deal, you would not go to a registered match and compete with an unproven load, wether it be LR or SR, and it has been my observation that those who do well have put the hard yards in
Ned,
For our 30BR project we had a lot to consider as you mentioned, I was a little dubious at the start, especially about the recoil. But I am very pleased with how it has turned out, in fact everything I had reservations over have been non-issues, and after 1 more days load testing to confirm what I have so far, my rig is ready for comp
KY
I think the evolution of accuracy is alive and well, and there are a few SR blokes out there who like JR/DG/TZ (have or are doing) are designing things in the shed in the quest for better performance
a mate of mine is currently working on a whole new SR case design which shows a lot of promise. I agree with JR... it is all the same deal, you would not go to a registered match and compete with an unproven load, wether it be LR or SR, and it has been my observation that those who do well have put the hard yards in
Ned,
For our 30BR project we had a lot to consider as you mentioned, I was a little dubious at the start, especially about the recoil. But I am very pleased with how it has turned out, in fact everything I had reservations over have been non-issues, and after 1 more days load testing to confirm what I have so far, my rig is ready for comp
KY
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Ned Kelly
- .270 Winchester
- Posts: 1277
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:39 am
- Favourite Cartridge: 6PPC
- Location: Macedon Ranges Vic
G'Day All,
What I should have said was when I believe I can shoot to the limit of my rifles ability, then and only then would I personally consider experimenting in order to push the performance envelope. At this time I do not believe I’m at that point. So, in SR BR I do not believe I'm giving anything away to any other shooter by using a 6ppc.
I know I have got my rifle tuned better than I can consistently shoot it and that I'll lose more shots to conditions than I will from the equipment I'm using. I know my rifle will not let me down once I'm at the bench. Essentially, I need more trigger time over good flags and preferably in competition so I can refine my shooting technique and tuning abilities. Currently, I do not have the luxury of time and money to compete or practice as widely as I have done in the past.
Kenny is absolutely correct; every competitive shooter should go to the firing line with their equipment completely sorted out to their satisfaction. Otherwise, they’re there to fill the gaps up in the rest of the field. You need to know in yourself that you have done all you can prior to the call to "insert bolts and commence fire" and then it is the time where all of your experience is called upon to perform to the best of your ability to shoot equal or better than your peers.
This is only achieved as Kenny says by putting in the hard yards. And yes I believe personally that there are probably only about 20 or so people in SR BR in Australia today that can truthfully say they can shoot their BR rifles to the fullest of their rifles capability. Just look at the top 20 in the Australia Day or Nationals lists or the WBC teams of any given year, always the same names..........
So for me I'll stick to the tried and proven 6ppc and I'll admire those who experiment with cartridge designs and congratulate them with their successes, because they will have deserved it by putting in the hard yards. Nuff said.
Cheerio Ned
What I should have said was when I believe I can shoot to the limit of my rifles ability, then and only then would I personally consider experimenting in order to push the performance envelope. At this time I do not believe I’m at that point. So, in SR BR I do not believe I'm giving anything away to any other shooter by using a 6ppc.
I know I have got my rifle tuned better than I can consistently shoot it and that I'll lose more shots to conditions than I will from the equipment I'm using. I know my rifle will not let me down once I'm at the bench. Essentially, I need more trigger time over good flags and preferably in competition so I can refine my shooting technique and tuning abilities. Currently, I do not have the luxury of time and money to compete or practice as widely as I have done in the past.
Kenny is absolutely correct; every competitive shooter should go to the firing line with their equipment completely sorted out to their satisfaction. Otherwise, they’re there to fill the gaps up in the rest of the field. You need to know in yourself that you have done all you can prior to the call to "insert bolts and commence fire" and then it is the time where all of your experience is called upon to perform to the best of your ability to shoot equal or better than your peers.
This is only achieved as Kenny says by putting in the hard yards. And yes I believe personally that there are probably only about 20 or so people in SR BR in Australia today that can truthfully say they can shoot their BR rifles to the fullest of their rifles capability. Just look at the top 20 in the Australia Day or Nationals lists or the WBC teams of any given year, always the same names..........
So for me I'll stick to the tried and proven 6ppc and I'll admire those who experiment with cartridge designs and congratulate them with their successes, because they will have deserved it by putting in the hard yards. Nuff said.
Cheerio Ned
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jimbo
- .17 HMR
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:11 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 6 PPC
- Location: South Australia
Re: Wants and needs!
[/quote]a.JR wrote:Ned , If you think that these requirements are not the same in Long Range BR , U need to widen your horizons and get to a few 500 on out Bench matchs.. You can trust me when i say that if you havn't got it all together and i'm at the same match you had better hope my scope falls apart or something unlucky like that happens ..A good 5 target agg for me is just around .400 at 551 yds,i've heard of those at 200 at times..I can do this with something i grew in my shed ..JR..Jeff Rogers
Where yardages and grand aggs are won or lost by a couple of thou I need to worry about the load, the wind and bag set up just to remain competitve,
Cheerio Ned
What an extraordinary thing to say. Now JR, I don't know you, but from this post are you suggesting that unless you have some mechanical failure, that the rest of us are just fighting over second place? I don't think that I have ever heard of a 'sportsman' (with the possible exception of Michael Schumacher) making such a claim. You must indeed be a master at what you do.
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 25.06
- Location: Hervey Bay Qld
jimbo,
I think what aJR is saying, is that if you turn up to a LR match and you are not right on your game, that being your gear is sorted and ready to go and you are mentally ready to perform then you wont beat him unless mechanical failure kicks in.
The intent is right and believe me its not just aJR that you would be behind on the score sheet. LR is very competitive I have attended various shoots where the last target was for the silverware. In fact as an example last March at the Federal Cup at Canberra with one target to shoot you had 5 or 6 possible winners in terrible conditions with changing winds and no consistancy at all, in what is THE EVENT to WIN, now that gets to be some pressure on the bench. A very solid list of shooters in that top 12 as well.
If you are a touch off you loose.
By the way aJR has written his statement from his perspective and that is that I am the king of the castle and as he won the shooter of the year last year he can do that, its up to you or someone else to knock him off his perch.
Cheers
Rinso
ps aJR see you at Canberra in March 2007
I think what aJR is saying, is that if you turn up to a LR match and you are not right on your game, that being your gear is sorted and ready to go and you are mentally ready to perform then you wont beat him unless mechanical failure kicks in.
The intent is right and believe me its not just aJR that you would be behind on the score sheet. LR is very competitive I have attended various shoots where the last target was for the silverware. In fact as an example last March at the Federal Cup at Canberra with one target to shoot you had 5 or 6 possible winners in terrible conditions with changing winds and no consistancy at all, in what is THE EVENT to WIN, now that gets to be some pressure on the bench. A very solid list of shooters in that top 12 as well.
If you are a touch off you loose.
By the way aJR has written his statement from his perspective and that is that I am the king of the castle and as he won the shooter of the year last year he can do that, its up to you or someone else to knock him off his perch.
Cheers
Rinso
ps aJR see you at Canberra in March 2007
Cantberrra in '07
Hi Dave , Sorry i won't be at Majura this year, i'm going to Batemans Bay for the southern leg of the SOTY.. I hate the CBR range and i havn't been to Batemans and it has got oysters so it's an easy choice for me ..I have been competiting nationally at some form of competition for more than 30 years, i have never changed my ideas or direction at whatever sport i tried ..I hate losing ,don't try to be half good at a number of shoots, have only ONE gun, simple as that and i try very hard to make sure i'm as close to the top as i can get .. To those that think this is wrong--------
Jimbo, Your post is nothing but argumentitive and won't get the responce from me U hoped for..JR..Jeff Rogers.......................................
Jimbo, Your post is nothing but argumentitive and won't get the responce from me U hoped for..JR..Jeff Rogers.......................................
Rinso wrote:jimbo,
I think what aJR is saying, is that if you turn up to a LR match and you are not right on your game, that being your gear is sorted and ready to go and you are mentally ready to perform then you wont beat him unless mechanical failure kicks in.
The intent is right and believe me its not just aJR that you would be behind on the score sheet. LR is very competitive I have attended various shoots where the last target was for the silverware. In fact as an example last March at the Federal Cup at Canberra with one target to shoot you had 5 or 6 possible winners in terrible conditions with changing winds and no consistancy at all, in what is THE EVENT to WIN, now that gets to be some pressure on the bench. A very solid list of shooters in that top 12 as well.
If you are a touch off you loose.
By the way aJR has written his statement from his perspective and that is that I am the king of the castle and as he won the shooter of the year last year he can do that, its up to you or someone else to knock him off his perch.
Cheers
Rinso
ps aJR see you at Canberra in March 2007
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Rinso
- .338 Lapua Magnum
- Posts: 2055
- Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:09 pm
- Favourite Cartridge: 25.06
- Location: Hervey Bay Qld
Jeff,
Shame you aren't going to Canberra. Nobody "likes" Majura range and Majura range dislikes you right back..thats part of the challenge.
I have to say get back on the horse mate, winning there last year was a highlight for me, you get an extra satisfaction beating Majura as well as the field.
Either way I will see you at Batemans Bay, Shane Clancy turns up to the Canberra shoots and I am trying to talk Dave Goodridge into going this year. Add John Rawson, Mick Farr, Col Prest, Jaegen Peet and a few others should be a good field.
cheers
Rinso
Shame you aren't going to Canberra. Nobody "likes" Majura range and Majura range dislikes you right back..thats part of the challenge.
I have to say get back on the horse mate, winning there last year was a highlight for me, you get an extra satisfaction beating Majura as well as the field.
Either way I will see you at Batemans Bay, Shane Clancy turns up to the Canberra shoots and I am trying to talk Dave Goodridge into going this year. Add John Rawson, Mick Farr, Col Prest, Jaegen Peet and a few others should be a good field.
cheers
Rinso